HONDA NC700X

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IrlMike
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Re: HONDA NC700X

I mentioned the weight in a much earlier post, but the point was more to do with the cost in economy & performance terms of accelerating that weight. The question of handling is much more related to the quality & choice of parameters of the suspension components. Nor is the CoG height particularly relevant, except at walking pace, where a lower CoG makes a bike easier to manoevre. (In sports & racing bikes, higher CoG is not chosen because it affects handling per se, rather there are many trade offs at play. One I suspect has some importance is that higher CoG reduces the required lean angle for a given corner speed. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it is correct.)

The point wrt weight is somewhat obvious if you look at the chassis pictured in Kevin's review. It drops steeply from the headstock back over the engine, rather than make the more optimal straight triangulation to the swing arm pivot/rear suspension mount. What is obvious is that this was done to accomodate 'scooter' styling (& some scooter funcionality) with a common platform. But this means more chassis weight is needed to obtain the same rigidity. It's not dreadful by any means, & I was possibly guilty myself originally in overstating the weight issue. However it does mean that the design is compromised when the platform is used for a bike. I guess what I'm saying is good effort, esp the engine & fuel economy philosophy, but could be a bit better in bike terms. But as a peformance (mostly commuter) scooter 'style' effort, where plushness likely has a higher premium than fun in (bumpy) twisties, it's probably market leading by a good margin.

pittsy
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Vroum-ninou: "higher center of gravity tends to make for better handling bikes (cf sport bikes)."

Generally, I agree. For any bike, not just sports bikes. Perhaps with the exception of bikes/scooters intended for very low speed manoeuvrability? This should make a juicy topic in the technical section. I would really like to find the opinion of others and explore the science of it. Do you want to start it or shall I?

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Hi IrlMike the NC700X is a motorcycle NOT a scooter. if it were a scooter I wouldn't be seen dead on one

IrlMike
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Rocker66 wrote:
Hi IrlMike the NC700X is a motorcycle NOT a scooter. if it were a scooter I wouldn't be seen dead on one

I suppose there's a clue in your 'handle'? ;)

Given that either variant of this 'platform' will have similar dynamics, if I needed a commuter, I personally wouldn't be concerned by scooter styling.

Maybe Honda are missing a trick by not producing a full faired 'bike' version for those that want weather protection, but not a 'scooter'?

kevash
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Re: HONDA NC700X

gunshot72 wrote:
Hi Kev. May I ask how you calculated 64 mpg given the bike does not give out any instant or average mpg data on it's dash? Was it a case of filling up with the max 14 litres and running it until dry then doing some sums?

You may indeed. The trip was zeroed at the beginning of my test ride, I checked the tank was full (and exactly how full, as you can often squeeze in an extra litre or so if you take your time) and we refuelled the bikes at the end of the day, so they were ready for the next bunch to ride them. I noted how many litres went in and how many miles - kilometres in this case - were now on the trip. It worked out at just over 64mpg. This isn't always possible on press launches but I do it on every bike whenever it is.

I never use the dash readouts as gospel, although to be fair they've been getting increasingly accurate these days - my V-Strom is spot on every time, but I only know that because I've checked it repeatedly against the mileage and refill figures.

kevash
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Re: HONDA NC700X

IrlMike wrote:
The point wrt weight is somewhat obvious if you look at the chassis pictured in Kevin's review. It drops steeply from the headstock back over the engine, rather than make the more optimal straight triangulation to the swing arm pivot/rear suspension mount. What is obvious is that this was done to accomodate 'scooter' styling (& some scooter funcionality) with a common platform. But this means more chassis weight is needed to obtain the same rigidity.

I'm sure that's exactly right, and I think the upside of that is seen not in the dynamics of the bike but the price. In some markets, notably Italy, the Integra is expected to (and probably will) perform extremely well, which will be a big factor in keeping the price low on all the bikes that use that platform. All engineering is a compromise in one way or another, and the relationships between gains and losses can get very complicated.

gunshot72
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Re: HONDA NC700X

There was an article with the NC700X project leader in last months MSL. He was also the leader for the NSR250, NSR400R and CBR600F so he know his stuff. A steel frame had to be used to give the NC more rigidity hence the higher weight but also because steel is cheaper than alloys hence the lower cost of the bike. As always with Honda it's nicely welded and finished though.

vroum_ninou
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Re: HONDA NC700X

IrlMike wrote:
I mentioned the weight in a much earlier post, but the point was more to do with the cost in economy & performance terms of accelerating that weight. The question of handling is much more related to the quality & choice of parameters of the suspension components. Nor is the CoG height particularly relevant, except at walking pace, where a lower CoG makes a bike easier to manoevre. (In sports & racing bikes, higher CoG is not chosen because it affects handling per se, rather there are many trade offs at play. One I suspect has some importance is that higher CoG reduces the required lean angle for a given corner speed. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it is correct.)

Agreed, although it depends a little on the definition of "handling". As you state, a low C of G is good for slow speed handling.

What I usually refer to by handling is handling at normal speeds, riding speeds, not parking lot speeds. A higher C of G will let the bike lean with less effort. How many times have we seen press releases from manufacturers stating that they had raised the engine in the chassis by x mm to improve handling through a higher C of G.

As you state too, a higher C of G allows for less lean at the same speed, or more speed at a given lean. I personally would put this in the "handling" category but I can see how you could have a more restricted definition of "handling".

A higher C of G has trade-offs indeed, the biggest one for sport bikes being the tendency for the bike to wheelie or do stoppies which affects the ability to accelerate or brake strongly. For maximum acceleration and braking a long low bike is better (cf Diavel). So as you say, it's a trade-off between the ability to quickly lean the bike and have more speed at a given lean angle (high C of G) and being able to brake and accelerate as hard as possible (low C of G).
Of course suspensions are primordial for handling, but so are the bike geometry, C of G, frame rigidity etc...
It's such a complex thing, just look at Rossi and Burgess last year! Let's see if they can do better this year. First indication comes in a few days at the Sepang tests!

vroum_ninou
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Re: HONDA NC700X

pittsy wrote:

Generally, I agree. For any bike, not just sports bikes. Perhaps with the exception of bikes/scooters intended for very low speed manoeuvrability? This should make a juicy topic in the technical section. I would really like to find the opinion of others and explore the science of it. Do you want to start it or shall I?

ha ha ha... that would be quite a can of worms to open! Almost as bad as the power thrust curves! :-P

The physics of motorcycle dynamics are actually quite complex! Sure there are a few basic principles, but the devil is in the details as they say...

IrlMike
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Re: HONDA NC700X

vroum_ninou wrote:
pittsy wrote:

Generally, I agree. For any bike, not just sports bikes. Perhaps with the exception of bikes/scooters intended for very low speed manoeuvrability? This should make a juicy topic in the technical section. I would really like to find the opinion of others and explore the science of it. Do you want to start it or shall I?

ha ha ha... that would be quite a can of worms to open! Almost as bad as the power thrust curves! :-P

The physics of motorcycle dynamics are actually quite complex! Sure there are a few basic principles, but the devil is in the details as they say...

Haha...very true

At risk of repeating myself, my contention is that the bike version, arguably aimed at a more all-rounder oriented bike buyer, perhaps falls short, particularly in the suspension dept., but is not dreadful by any means.

If I'm over critical, it's in part because I actually would like Honda to succeed in developing more bikes along these lines. And I would like to have seen the overall proposition add up to a better machine.

One of the key pluses for it is the fuel economy. But has this, wrt its performance really improved enough to compensate for its other compromises? I'm not so sure.

Could GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection), most suitable in lower revving engines like this, have taken fuel economy a useful stage further? Motus seem to got this working in their V4 (tho' I've seen no mpg figures as yet), so why haven't Honda, with all their resources, taken the step? Maybe it's back to cost/price point. But better mpg can help to offset an initial higher price. Perhaps this platform represents a 'toe in the water', to gauge demand. I hope it sells well if that encourages Honda to further development.

pittsy
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Re: HONDA NC700X

IrLMike: "Could GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection), most suitable in lower revving engines like this, have taken fuel economy a useful stage further? Motus seem to got this working in their V4 (tho' I've seen no mpg figures as yet), so why haven't Honda, with all their resources, taken the step?"

I think I know the very basics of how DI works and has potential for superior mpg ( and torque/power), but I could do with knowing a lot more! Doh! Another topic to get into.

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Well I finally got my test ride today although the conditions were ideal alternating between fog and low cloud. My concern which was the seat height was solved when I found that I could comfortably get either one foot flat or the balls of both feet on the ground. Pulling away at such low revs seemed strange as did changing up so slowly but this soon became natural. I found the riding position very relaxed and the seat whilst not plush was more than adequate for the sort of journeys that I would be using the bike for. Although the bike was very low mileage it cruised happily at 80-85 MPH (on a private circuit of course officer) at 70MPH the engine was doing just over 4K RPM. One of the roads that I rode is in very bad condition but the suspension dealt with it adequately. I did wonder about the fact that it only has a single disc but again the brakes were more than adequate. I was impressed with the size of the storage are in what would normally be the petrol tank area. Wind protection seemed ok although I think I would consider fitting the higher screen. One concern I do have is the fact that the radiator looks very exposed but hopefully somebody like R&G will produce a cover for it.
Overall how much did I like the bike? Let's just say that come March 1st there will be one less Deauville in my garage

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Captain Scarlet
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Conger-rats Rocker! It'll be interesting to hear, in time, what life is like living with the NC700. Until then, after it arrives, enjoy! :-D

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Captain Scarlet wrote:
Conger-rats Rocker! It'll be interesting to hear, in time, what life is like living with the NC700. Until then, after it arrives, enjoy! :-D

Thank you. I will report back after 1st service and again after 3 months ownership. I'm sure that the others that have bought them will also report back so it might be interesting to compare the reports

shuggiemac
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Well done Rocker, it's always a great thing to get a new bike. I don't want to sound patronising but I value your input on these matters more than most, as your bikes are more than just a fair weather hobby.

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

shuggiemac wrote:
Well done Rocker, it's always a great thing to get a new bike. I don't want to sound patronising but I value your input on these matters more than most, as your bikes are more than just a fair weather hobby.

True it doesn't matter how many times you have done it buying a new bike is always great feling. I even enjoy negotiating the deal. I'm really looking forward to the 2nd March (I'm working on the 1st)when I pick up the new bike. I'm waiting until then as thats when the new registrations start. Hopefully by then the accessories will be available

kevash
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Really looking forward to your feedback on this Rocker, this bike's so different a lot of people are wondering what it'll be like to live with.

gunshot72
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Well done rocker66 thanks for your review. I think you found the same things I did about the bike. With ref to the radiator being exposed I also thought this but you'll notice how much smaller and also higher it is then most 'normal' bikes. Therefore the chances of a stone dinging it are remote, especially as it is too high to have one hit it coming up from a sticky front tyre. I myself prefer a smaller screen as well as I just don't get on with any kind of turbulance. I prefer a smooth clean wind even in the wet, as this keeps my head still and visor clear. Looking forward to your first 'living with the NC' report!

gunshot72
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Re: HONDA NC700X

In this video you can see a few overtakes and how the bike is pretty good picking up speed from low revs. It is me on the bike during a second test ride today. 720p HD available. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiPJWNRmYuU

kharli
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Re: HONDA NC700X

well ive had mine a week and only done 150 miles as its been icy and i havnt wanted to push it. Well i can say kevin ash review pretty spot on so wont repeat,
Prob could do with front rear huggers keep muck down ,not any accessories available yet, not on many insurers databases tho carole nash were good and cheeper than deuville to insure..um super solid and safe feeling and cant wait for more adventurous riding..barmuffs fit well..appears to do really good mpg tho im running it in type riding..im really pleased with it..i feel theres a lot more to get out of the bike as i get to know it.
Im over 50 living in sw scotland having only passed full test recently,but done lotta miles on me 125. Im poppin around europe on it in april and will knock up some good miles ,will post again in 5 months on how the bike did.

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Hi Gunshot72 & kharli Your reports make we want to rip a page out of my calendar so that March 2nd comes around a lot quicker. Mind you that would mean me missing out my 65th birthday. It appears that the NC700X is ideal for what we seem to want out of this bike

Captain Scarlet
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Nice vid, on that private road! ;-D "Well ya didn't say it was rainin' did ya?" :-D

gunshot72
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Re: HONDA NC700X

It was kph! And yes my riding buddy cries when it rains. I watch the weather radar and deliberately go out with him so he gets caught in it.

Captain Scarlet
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Re: HONDA NC700X

I positively pray for it. If you can't ride nearly as quickly in the rain then you don't know how to ride well is my view! ;-D

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

In my view those ride in the rain on a regular basis tend be be smoother riders than the sunny Sunday only guys.Of course this is a generalisation and true in all cases

herb
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Re: HONDA NC700X

Rain does not bother me if I get caught out in it, but I will avoid it if I can. I am happy to be a fair weather rider these days. I spent a long time riding through all weathers so I feel I have served my apprenticeship.

When I do get caught out I don't feel it affects my riding too much at all. Lack of visibility can be a pain, but lack of grip is rarely a problem with modern sports touring tyres. I did bikesafe in torrential rain and the Policeman I was riding with said he had lucked out riding with me. We were quickly up to the speed limit and had a great ride. He was in touch with the other guys on the radio and they were having a torrid time, barely hitting 40.

NC700X. It was the bike of the NEC show for me. I think Honda are being pretty inventive and trying to create a new market to some degree. I don't think I am ready to change my bike yet, but I am curious enough about the NC that I might see if I can get a test ride.

alanp
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Re: HONDA NC700X

I try to avoid the rain since in traffic the problem you're faced with is reduced car/van driver's visibility especially when they are trying to use their mirrors (if they use them at all!)when they are coming down a slip road onto a main road that you are happily trundling along. Another biker killed here yesterday. Take care out there.

Rocker66
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Re: HONDA NC700X

It would be nice to avoid rain but when you live in the UK and your bikes are your only form of personal transport it's a luxury that you don't have. Ice & snow are the only things that force me to travel to work by train despite the fact that working for the railway I get free travel

roundincircles
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Re: HONDA NC700X

NC LUCKY OWNERS.I hope to sit on and take a close look at the NC and Xtourer on thursday at Excell with the Xtourer in my sights. How would you describe build integrity and component finish on your new bikes? The reason I ask is that, in my judgement, Honda took a backward step on specification and general finish post BlackBird, probably driven by accountants, but seem to have recognised the error.

Is that the case; if you can put aside the pride of ownership?

kharli
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Re: HONDA NC700X

everybody who has seen the bike thinks it has cost twice the money. Parked next to a new say vfr it maybe lacks some fancy bits and pieces but from where im sat it looks and feels a proper jap made honda. mmm put aside pride of ownership mmmm cant tell mate but i think id be happy to report things im not happy with as they come along....so far no probs except a bitto dirt magnet on my muddy roads , and hassle in supermarket carparks from intrested passer bys.well not hassle exactly :)