Have I got that right? If so, they're bringing to the showroom more than they claim.
If triumph's figures are crank figures, why are they comparing them to BMW dyno figures?
Who's kidding who?
Good point, I'll check that out, although the main point of the graph was to show the difference between the BMW showroom bike and the press versions. But the Triumph ones wouldn't have been done on the same dyno, that was all done by Motorrad magazine, who wouldn't have had a Tiger Explorer to hand.
I now hear Triumph is aware, it's a software issue and they're working on refining it. If it's not sorted by showroom time, then first service or soon after by the look of it.
Ooh, now that's a toughie... Well, I'd pay the extra for the Mutley S I think, the Triumph can't help me with occasional need for insane acceleration, and I do prefer the Ducati's substantially lighter weight. I don't mind chains either.
Kevash said: "But the Triumph ones wouldn't have been done on the same dyno,"
The curves for the explorer match the figures quoted at the bottom of the page. It's assumed these figures, published by manufacturers, are usually crank rated figures.
Still, no publicity is bad publicity. Ker Ching.
Many thanks for the answers! Good to hear they're on the case re: cruise and that quality (inc. brackets) is good.
1. Is the clutch lever light and the bite easy to modulate?
2. Others report intrusive engine vibes. Any comment?
3. Is the rear shock up for heavy loads?
4. Others report front brake lag. Can it be modulated?
5 Were you commenting on the touring or standard screen?
6. Does the luggage destabilise the bike at high speed?
7. At low speed is the bike top heavy?
8. Did you calibrate the petrol pump that you used to fill the tank to the brim? Seriously, great you managed a brim to brim..........as it will reduce repetitive forum chatter.........well maybe.
8. Did you hear the arrows exhaust. Is it get on your nerves loud?
Did Triumph say why they ignored electronic suspension?
1. Clutch is normal light and the bite is fine, I had no issues and didn't have to adjust at all.
2. That really surprises me, I thought just the opposite, that it's very smooth. You can feel it working but absolutely nothing intrusive.
3. I can only guess, it seemed fine on a brief spin with a passenger and there's a remote preload, but I've not tested this so I can't say for certain.
4. I'm not sure what they'd mean by lag, unless it's the dive from the forks disguising the initial bite of the brake. There's no servo or anything like that so when you pull the lever the brake is working, it's as direct as any other brake. There is quite a lot of dive though, and GS owners especially might be disconcerted by it.
5. I was commenting on the standard one, but the touring one is better again.
6. No, it's remarkably stable at speed - Triumph has put a lot of work in preventing the luggage from interfering with stability at speed, and it shows.
7. I think it feels a little more top heavy than a GS, but nothing that bothered me.
8. Yes, it was brim to brim, although it depended on the pump attendant (this was Spain...) so there will be a little inaccuracy, but it will be about right. In fact the dash was a little more pessimistic than the pump.
8. I didn't hear the Arrows, but the Triumph ones have a removable baffle (for cleaning purposes, obviously...), so you can quietn it if it bothers you.
9. No, I'll put the question to them and get back to you with that.
Yes, that hadn't occurred to me when they presented the graph, I was too busy being stunned by Triumph telling us BMW had cheated... As I said, it's a good point, it either means they're giving us more power than they say (unlikely...) or they comparing crank with rear wheel figures, unless the BMW ones are clutch basket figures which you can get on a dyno, and these won't be very different to crank ones. But as you also point out, then they don't correlate with BMW's quoted crank figures. A few questions to be answered there...
I love this forum!
It is poor if they try to blame BMW in a presentation. And if they say they took the data from "Motorrad" then I don't understand it. Motorrad is a kind of "BMW-Newspaper".
Kevin's review is brilliant but to me not so enthusiastic like some others from him. The Explorer is maybe now the class-leading bike but it feels like a "me-too" product. The design and the layout is more or less a copy (a very good one).
I had the hope that Triumph will be more innovative with the 1200 but it's Triumph's interpretation of the GS theme. So far so good but not exciting.
Somebody said here that the MTS is not on the list anymore and for instance "Motorrad" founded a new class of bikes as the MTS was introduced. First I thought they want to avoid the problem of having an non-BMW as the winner. But they were right to do so: the GS is a very good package and maybe no bike can be so variable and fit to so many different riders.
The Multistrada is more like a tall superbike. The breathtaking engine (if you really rev it) together with the firm and balanced chassis and suspension is unique in the tall-rounder class. And it's comfort, technical spec and long distance capabilities are adding a great plus.
Maybe the 1050 Tiger can be a possibility but Triumph disregarded the concept a little bit. I hope they will develop it because the triple is really a great engine.
I was thinking about that while riding the Explorer and yes, I think it'll make a cracking good touring bike. It's exactly what BMW does of course with the GS and RT, and the spy shots show Triumph's tourer looking a lot like an RT too, so BMW's going to get even more annoyed. But anyway, judging by the Explorer, the Trophy will be an excellent bike.
The cruise control looks like it'll be sorted too.
Clutch basket dyno take off on a boxer? That is the crank! :-)
Regarding an answer to my question, seriously, it won't bother me either way, please don't waste precious time. If you see an error in what I've put forward, great. If you don't, it's there on the table for input. If you want to for your own info that's a different thing.
RIC, do you spend a lot of time switching modes?
"The design and the layout is more or less a copy"
... I've read that elsewhere too. And you know, I really can't see it? The only things they appear to have in common is a shaft driven single sided swing-arm and same sized wheels. Everything, right down to the Triumph 1215cc is different, isn't it? Or is that just me? Even things questionably similar like a beak (pioneered by Suzuki) and seat height adjustment have totally different designs from each other. Now their Trophy frontage aping an RT fairly verbatim is another matter entirely! :-D
"So far so good but not exciting"
... a valid point, but in the 'adventure touring' class (1200cc+ shaft-driven adventure bikes) we cannot single it out, as no bike is this class is 'exciting', they are deliberately function over form and practicality over performance.
"Somebody said here that the MTS is not on the list anymore"
... the MTS is more 'adventure sports', like the SMT and Tiger 800 roadie. That leaves the 'dual sports' of F800GS, Tiger 800 XC and KLR etc.
"Maybe the 1050 Tiger can be a possibility but Triumph disregarded the concept a little bit. I hope they will develop it because the triple is really a great engine."
... I think you're going to be disappointed as I think they'll kill it off just as soon as its sales dry up, which I think has already began - it can't compete with the SMT/MTS or the GS/eXplorer, except on price.
This is looking more and more like my ideal bike. Very practical for Oz roads. Great mile muncher.
Complimented by perhaps a streetfightered 1000cc sport bike for that touch of madness..
Comfort seems highly rated. Were the bikes fitted with the (stock looking) accessory comfort seats?
You mentioned that "I didn't hear the Arrows, but the Triumph ones have a removable baffle (for cleaning purposes, obviously...), so you can quietn it if it bothers you" and I wondered if they are supplying dealers with a different map for the (EU approved) Arrow exhaust can? And whether the said map fuels properly, so as not to cause any engine damage, if run 'permanently without' the internal baffle?*
* on private roads and track days, erm, obviously....
Captain, I assume you mean engine map and suspension and load.? It takes a few seconds to switch modes. But you do need to remember how to do it.
Additionally I cycle , mainly, between normal and touring in suspension and touring and sport in engine map but since the engine remap the edge has been blunted in sport mode.
The ride quality changes significantly with suspension changes and helps on bad roads and when legging it.
I had the rear shock spring changed to the stiffest available.
"The design and the layout is more or less a copy" - to be more precise here are some photos - only taken from the exhaust pipe sides otherwise it's getting really too complicated.
I think Triumph and BMW are using similar design approaches.
The Honda is different but maybe not "nice" enough.
And finally the Multistrada as a different interpretation of the tall-rounder theme.
And yes I think the same. Triumph will kill the Tiger 1050.
Another review. Forsyth still prefers the CrossTourer, but only got four hours (same as everyone else?) on the eXplorer and rated it well: http://www.visordown.com/road-tests-first-rides/first-ride-triumph-tiger...
Thanks RIC, I wondered because you asked the question about lecky suspension/modes on the Triumph and I just leave the Diavel on Sport all the time. I still don't know why toggling modes on the MTS is so slow? It's not as slow on the Diavel and it's (as it should be) instant on the Tenere!
No, I still can't see it Maksim? I'm not deliberately trying to be contradictory to your good self, I just genuinely cannot? You've got an inline triple versus opposed twin; wire wheels versus mags; swing-arms on different sides; wishbones verses telescopics; over the engine frame; symmetrical versus asymmetrical headlights... I mean in some ways, bar both having a seat and wheels, they couldn't be 'more different' if they tried? Sorry, you'll have to be much more specific, a picture isn't saying a thousand words in this instance!
I think the Honda is pretty, but it looks more like a cute and curvy small bike, like a 650 or something? I don't know if I prefer that or think it's not rugged looking enough. I like the idea of strong just off idle torque, which it seems to be the class leader in. But then again, like the Panigale not having the grunt of the 1198 low down, perhaps it will make the Triumph more manageable (particularly at walking pace/bad weather urban) than the Honda which is also carrying those extra 15 kilo? Forsyth calls the engine 'turbine smooth', so I guess it's manageable without lacking go? Again I like the spokes of the Honda and GS (optional extras from BMW, of course), but then having to check them with a torque key periodically is another little maintenance job that I'd sooner not have to do.
At the moment, for me, head says Triumph and heart says Ducati. But they all have a number of strong virtues, so the proof will be in the group tests.
I find myself in the same quandary as the El Captain...have narrowed my choice down to either Explorer or MTS...coming from a sports bike I'm drawn to the MTS but would love to know Kev's view of the pros and cons of these two bikes when you have had a chance to ride the Explorer for an extended time...
Ersk1 Nice quandary.....could be a name for the next Ducati with shaft drive!
I have yet to ride the xPlorer and look forwards to it as I love triple engines. I have done 12,000 miles on an MTS and can say it fills the sports tallrounder niche with it's ballistic engine and all day comfort not withstanding some wind/helmet noise. It is light and agile.
It can be demanding as it goads you into fast thrilling surges of acceleration.
However my first trip two up was to Norway and it fitted the bill perfectly. My first track day was Cadwell and it fitted the bill perfectly.
The Triumph will probably be better at sensible fun touring with loads of character like the Ducati.Probably, I guess, less temperamental and with better tank range......OK Captain, maybe.....because the weight will temper your urge for manic, and I mean manic, Ducati acceleration.
Test ride both bikes and face the 'quandary' head on!
On this BMW assertion of Triumph 'copying'I would dearly like their explanation.
Air/oil cooled boxer v. triple water cooled. Chocolate shaft drive v. Victorian Iron Bridge with seven layers of lead paint. A screen that leads your helmet a merry dance v. a screen that cossets.Electronic suspenders with paralever v.plain Jane suspenders. Made in Berlin with a 'stand in ze line' canteen welcome serving Bratwurst v. made in Hinckley by an 'Ay up m'duck' canteen welcome with Bangers, Japati and Rogan Josh.
Blah, blah. Surely shaft, two wheels, a gearbox, long travel suspension and an engine are fundamental to a tall rounder
Any views on how Triumph could be accused of copying?
Thanks RIC you have framed the Quandary well...am testing an MTS in New Zealand this weekend and then lining up an xPlorer test in March when I'm in the UK. So lots of time to mull before taking the plunge - which I need to do as in July I'm back in the UK to ride through eastern Europe down to Greece...
I think the only way to find out is a test drive with both. I'll try the Explorer because I'm curious about it.
And I don't "defend" the GS but - and this is very subjective - the Triumph designers used several elements of the look of the GS. They try to reach a similar impression or look-and-feel like the BMW - a little technical look with an aura of adventure. And if you look on the photos you see that the Explorer and the GS are telling the same story (design-wise): take me and I will go with you to the end of the world. The Honda is not looking like that.
Of course the Triumph is a triple and there are other technical things that must be different compared with the GS.
But it doesn't matter (and I've to apologise for my little knowledge of English language what makes it very hard for me to point out what I mean): I like my Multistrada most because she is telling a different story: take me and we'll have fun a whole day long.
And the best thing is that it's not only a story. The MTS is keeping the promise ;-D
MAKSIM. Your post is welcome and well made in English. You pay fantasy prices for your motorcycle so you have to be committed.
I will look forwards to your xPlorer review.
"I've to apologise for my little knowledge of English language what makes it very hard for me"
... wow Maksim, no apology necessary, you write so well in English, that I thought that you were English! :-D
Great comments too RIC and Ersk1, as ever. I guess, regarding those two machines, we all know hand on heart that if we cannot kick the habit of racing that GSXR1000RR that just past us and are busy looking at our calendars to work out when would be the best day to do another track-day, then the Mutley is a no brainer. But if we've had enough of speed traps, delivery that seems wasted at legal speeds, finicky temperaments and when we're 300 miles into a riding day and want to feel 'I'm not tired, lets do another hundred!' then the Triumph ought to be the better choice. I do prefer the Ducati's bellisimo looks, but the launch has ticked all the boxes that I was personally concerned about, such as build quality, driveline lash, comfort and airflow.
The only real negative so far has been the cruise control (which Forsyth thought fine) but it sounds like they are on that, so will probably update before bikes reach the shores over here in May. My new bikes rarely make their annual service before they are gone and I'm shacked up with a new love. So on that showing I ought to buy the mistress mutley. But I'd really like to stop being the village bike and form a lasting relationship with my new two-wheeled partner. And if I had to keep one for years, then the Triumph is very likely to be easier to live with. So much to torment the grey matter with! :-D
Another new review: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/893/12347/Motorcycle-Article/2012-Triumph-...
And another positive review: http://www.ridermagazine.com/top-stories/2012-triumph-tiger-explorer-fir...
Oops - double post!
Review by Visor Down at http://www.visordown.com/road-tests-first-rides/first-ride-triumph-tiger...
And again...joys of the internet at the speed of toffee!
So why not keep the one that is not even yet a year old and build a relationship with that? It's a pretty damn special machine after all and surely deserving of chance rather than a furtive hand shove up jersey grope and then kick it in to touch after a quick squeeze of the goodies.
I guess I am of the mind set that thinks you can't truly know a bike until you have really lived with it. Yes you can experience one in a few months but that is far from the full story. So keep the Diavel and use some of the wonga on a bike for the missis if you want to go travelling with her. Its way better than having a pillion after all and you can pocket the remaining mullah for a good holiday, cheap hookers, alcohol etc - delete as appropriate.
Well said Shuggie!
Though I must confess to suffering the same sort of affliction as CS. Having said that my Sprint STs (Old and new) and the Harley all seem to be keepers. Well by my standards anyway!
There is something about Triumph's bikes at the moment which encourage long(er) term ownership. Perhaps it's the fact that Triumph make predominantly road bikes which heightens their appeal.
Bring on the Trophy-style tourer is all I can say!
Shuggs said: "a good holiday, cheap hookers, alcohol etc - delete as appropriate."
You set tough tasks shuggie.
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